Mark Bailey:
Welcome to DTS Dialogue, Issues of God in Culture. I’m your host, Dr. Mark Bailey. And I have the privilege of serving as president of Dallas Theological Seminary. And our topic of dialogue today is Jewish evangelism, outreach and the church.
And I have with me in our studio today Dr. Harold Hoehner and Dr. Darrell Bock. Both of whom are professors of New Testament Study here at Dallas. And both have the unique privilege and responsibility of serving on boards that relate to Jewish ministry. Gentlemen, thank you for being a part of the discussion.
And I want to begin, Dr. Hoehner, with you. You’ve been involved for many years on the board of Jews for Jesus. Explain who Jews for Jesus is and then from your perspective what has been their contribution to Jewish evangelism in recent years.
Harold Hoehner:
Well Jews for Jesus started in the time of Berkley riots. And during the hippie movement. And was really involved in trying to see many Jewish people, young students, come to Christ. And then later formed into the Jews for Jesus mission. And they are very involved with evangelism and that’s their main forte is evangelism. And they’ve been very forthright in evangelizing and every good in passing out these broadsides that they call. And had many people come to Jesus Christ who are Jews.
Mark Bailey:
Founder of Jews for Jesus is?
Harold Hoehner:
Moishe Rosen.
Mark Bailey:
I met Moishe when I was student at Western Seminary in Portland in the early seventies.
Harold Hoehner:
Yeah. He was on the board with the seminary.
Mark Bailey:
He was. Quite a creative guy. He attracts creative people around him. Dr. Bock, you’ve been involved in recent years on the board with Chosen People Ministries. What is the unique contribution that Chosen People Ministries brings? And give us an overview of their involvement and your involvement with them.
Darrell Bock:
Well, Chosen People Ministries was originally the American Board of Mission to the Jews. It goes back to the later part of, I think, the nineteenth century and the early part of the twentieth century in terms of its founding. So it’s been around a long time.
Changed its name to Chosen People Ministries slightly over a decade ago. And it also is engaged in outreach to Jewish people with regard to the gospel. And I think perhaps the distinctive that Chosen People Ministries does is that it does have the goal of establishing congregations, messianic congregations around the world.
So this means that Jewish people who come to the Lord are able to, in many cases, continue some of their Jewish practices. They have an environment in which to encourage other Jews to come and here the gospel. That kind of thing.
Mark Bailey:
That’s great. We have had students from both Chosen People Ministries as well as Jews for Jesus on our campus. It’s been a delight to interface with them. And to watch them go out and have successful ministries. One of the purposes of talking about this topic at this time is that throughout recent years, with the Lausanne Conference on Evangelism that there have been declarations that have been made various times with regard to the need for Jewish evangelism. And to explain why we, as believers, think the Jews are still a needy people to be evangelized. A targeted people just like any other people.
One example is the Willowbank Declaration of 1989. There’s been recently a statement that’s been released by the World Evangelical Alliance called The Gospel and the Jewish People: An Evangelical Statement. And it’s an attempt to clarify why we believe, as evangelical believers, that there is still a need to evangelize the Jews.
There are some people who believe we shouldn’t evangelize the Jews. And why is that? Why do some people believe the Jews don’t need to be targeted for the gospel? What’s the foundation for such a view?
Harold Hoehner:
Well part of it goes back to – there are two issues actually here. Part of it goes back to the Holocaust. And what right do you have to try to tell us about Jesus when you did such a terrible thing to us as a Jewish people. And second factor is the era of pluralism.
In other words, you got enough work to do in your own backyard, why do you come to us? In other words, Presbyterians shouldn’t be telling Baptists what to do or Baptists tell Assemblies of God person what to do. Neither should you tell us about what we should do. We have enough to do for ourselves and you have enough to do for yourself. So those are the two elements that seem to be there.
Mark Bailey:
So from the Jewish side of the street, they don’t think they should be nor need be, and nor is it right to, be evangelized, you know by Christians. Fascinating. In a recent Christianity Today article Rabbi Yehiel Poupko is quoted as saying, “The basis of interfaith conversation must be mutual sacred rejection. A clear understanding of the irreconcilable differences between the faith communities.” And that goes back to the issue of pluralism. From a gentile or from even some purporting to be evangelic Christians, there’s even recent movements that say we don’t have to and don’t need to evangelize the Jews.
Darrell Bock:
Yes. This is kind of the theological explanation or an attempt to be a theological explanation. That there is a dual covenant commitment that God has made with His people. And so there’s the original covenant that God made with the Jews that was put in place for perpetuity. Reflected in the Mosaic covenant and the Mosaic commitments feeding back into the Abrahamic covenant of the Genesis 12.
And then there is the outreach to the gentiles, to everybody else. And that comes through Jesus Christ. And you keep these two separate. This has become a very popular view in a lot of European theology. And I think it’s very important to understand Dr. Hoehner mentioned earlier. And that is that there is in theology today when it comes to Judaism and Jewish matters, a kind of shadow of the Holocaust that hovers over all this discussion.
There is a large collective guilt. And I might say a very justified large collective guilt for the way in which a largely “Christian Europe” handled the Jewish people. And this has produced a desire to not either repeat those kinds of mistakes or not get caught in the same kind of position in the future. And so as a result people have backed off challenging or proselytizing in Jewish communities as a way of an affirmation of respect for those Jewish communities.
Harold Hoehner:
It’s very interesting, you know the discussion this whole thing is that we shouldn’t witness to them. And Othrie Hophius at Tubian says he doesn’t like this dual covenant idea cause it looks like a special way. And he says, no, what we have to realize that all Israel will be saved in the future, in Romans 11:26. Therefore we don’t need to witness to them today.
So I call his view not the special way but the special day view. But it’s always the idea, no, we’re not responsible to witness to the Jew. But our thinking, I think as believers, is not that we’re singling them out as you mentioned before. Every person – Jew, gentile, Polish, German, whatever nation and wherever they live in the world – need to evangelized.
Darrell Bock:
Yeah. In one sense there is no one who is targeted. We are all in need of what Jesus Christ has to offer. And so as a result of that the gospel goes to all nations – Jew and gentile included. And what I think is odd about this dual covenant view is that if it were really the view of the early church, Paul would have never started out in the synagogues. I mean why does he go into the city and go into the synagogues right at the start if, in fact, they’re already taken care of? I’ll just go straight to the marketplace. I’ll go to the agora and we’ll just do our evangelism there with all the non Jews.
Mark Bailey:
One of the ironies of history is that there was a time when the question was, could you be a gentile and be a Christian? It was only Jewish people who were Christians. Now the question is, can you be a Jew and be a Christian? And I think from not only the European theologians and the European people in terms of that hovering guilts from the Holocaust, but even some who would claim to hold to our own theological, dispensationalism.
You know we have a preacher down here in San Antonio who is quite popular. And out of love for the land of Israel has come to this dual covenant view that friendship with Israel politically is so much more important than we don’t want to offend them. Because we want to be their friend. Therefore, they’ve adopted that similar theology of we don’t need to witness to them.
And they are, and they irony is that that belief is that a Jew gets saved according to the Mosaic Law in a special relationship with Christ. Or with God. Excuse me. And a gentile comes to faith in Jesus Christ in a totally different way. Which therefore would argue for two ways of salvation. Which, in my mind, would eliminate the book of Romans as well as the book of Galatians from New Testament.
Darrell Bock:
Well, if we eliminated all the books of the New Testament that preached Christ to the Jews, I’m not sure we’d have much of a New Testament left. So in that sense – it’s a view that only gets created because there is a historical disconnect between the real roots of Christianity which came out of Judaism. And really said that Christ was Israel’s Messiah. I mean that’s where it started. It was the rejection of that Messiah that eventually led to the establishment of Christianity.
Jesus, when he came and had the disciples preach, went to the towns and cities in Israel. In one sense you could say that Jesus didn’t intend to create a separate structure, a separate thing called the church. If people had been responsive to His message and hadn’t rejected it, then all people would have been incorporated into what was Israel.
Harold Hoehner:
And, you know in Acts 1:8, Jerusalem and Judea for, if the Jews didn’t need the message why go to Jerusalem and Judea and then Samaria and then to the outermost part of the earth? You would think they say, “No, go first to the gentile nations and witness. They need Christ. We don’t.” But this is just the opposite.
Mark Bailey:
I was asked on a television program here locally about the dual covenant view. And I said, “Well, Jesus evidently didn’t believe that in the way he talked with Nicodemus. He thought Nicodemus needed to be born again. And therefore, a Jew needed, you know regeneration and coming to faith in Christ. And Cornelius is a great example of gentile who needed to come.” So both of those gets specifically targeted for the gospel.
And I think that raises the next question. Why then is the gospel, in sharing the gospel with a Jewish person not an act of intolerance to either Jews of gentiles?
Darrell Bock:
Well in one sense you could say it is an act of intolerance if your view is that diversity reigns and that it is inappropriate for anyone to suggest to anyone else that there is a particular religious expression that is more beneficial to people than another. Then that’s gonna be defined as intolerant. And that, of course, is generally the way our society tends to see it.
But of course the flip side of it is that Christians argue that God has revealed through Jesus Christ, a way for all people. Jesus is nondiscriminatory. He reaches out to all nations and all people. And so as a result the gospel goes to anyone and everyone who will respond to this message.
So there are no special recipients of the gospel. We are all potential receptees of that message.
Harold Hoehner:
I’m intolerant if I won’t let Jews come to know Jesus. But also a Jew who knows Jesus would be intolerant not letting gentiles come to know Jesus.
Mark Bailey:
Exactly. And I have often thought that if God and since God is God, and since His son is the only way, it’s not an act of intolerance as much as it’s an act of love to point them to. You know we don’t think one way streets in downtown Dallas are a demonstration of intolerance. It’s a demonstration of order and direction.
And if God is God and He has sent His son. And He is the only way. Then it’s far from intolerant. It may be the most loving thing we can do. To share Christ with a Jewish person.
Harold Hoehner:
Right. So most unloving thing to do, not to share the gospel.
Mark Bailey:
Exactly.
Darrell Bock:
Be a little bit like having a cure to cancer and saying you can’t have it.
Mark Bailey:
Both of you work with Christian organizations that are focused on Jewish evangelism. Sometimes it seems there’s tensions in when Jewish people come to Christ, should they keep looking Jewish? Or should they look more gentile? In other words, is there a place for Jewish culture in a believing Jewish community? Or do they need to abandon that culture in order to act more like the other Christians?
Darrell Bock:
Well, again I think Acts here is helpful to us. We know that in the earliest church that there was a deeply jewishly oriented community in Jerusalem. James was the head of it. And we know that even in a decision like the Jerusalem Council there were instructions sent out to all the churches about having some sensitivity in those context where there was a predominant Jewish population around that could be impacted by the way in which evangelism was done.
So I think the answer to that question in the New Testament is is that it’s a little more freer in form issues, generally speaking than sometimes we tend to think. We tend to want to homogenize everybody.
And so if someone comes to Christ as a Jewish person and they continue to have a concern to reach out to Jewish people. And they decide, “I want to continue to live in a way that honors kind of the Jewish roots of who I am while sharing Christ.” That kind of thing. I don’t think the Bible has a problem with someone who chooses to live that way and with congregations that try and live that way.
You know what’s interesting is is that we have it in other areas as well. We have African American congregations. We have Korean congregations. And why do congregations do this? It’s because minorities at a sociological level in order to preserve some of their own ethnic identities, where they’re not wiped out by the size of the majority in the rest of the society, can kind of gather together. And be, if I can say this in a healthy sense, be who they are.
And as long as those congregations don’t become excessively detached from the rest of the body or excessively separate from the rest of the body, distance themselves or don’t want to identify with the rest of the body. Then I think those kinds of communities actually perform a service for a lot of people in ministry. And in helping them to think through the communities they’re likely to be ministering to and seeking to reach as well.
Harold Hoehner:
I think it’s very clear in the Bible that we see in Corinthians, for instance, that don’t offend the Jew, the gentile or the church. And I think what it’s saying there that the Jew and gentile are unsaved people. They don’t know Messiah. And the church are composed of believing Jews and gentiles.
And I use the illustration in Ephesians, for instance. You know it’s not a dog becoming a cat nor a cat becoming a dog. It’s a cat and dog become a horse. A whole new person. Okay.
But that doesn’t mean that, as Dr. Bock has mentioned, that we homogenized. That there’re not gonna be distinctions. And I think we should honor these. As long as they don’t try to foist it on other people. Say, “This is a requirement. If you’re really gonna be a godly Christian then you must follow the practices of what the Jews had or any other practice of any other land, for instance.”
And so there should be diversity. An allowant for diversity. I think heaven will be a much better place when there’s diversity. Rather than something one, you know homogenized mass.
Darrell Bock:
There’s a really important ecclesiological principle here. A principle about the church that I think actually is something that dispensationalism offers to this discussion. And that’s this. That in this new community that Christ has formed there has been a reconciliation between Jew and gentile. Now anyone who knows the history of Jews and gentiles in the first century, in the second temple Jewish period, knows that these were two ethnic groups that really went after one another. There was a lot of hostility between them.
And so the idea that there could be a societal structure in which enemies, societal enemies could function alongside one another, under God, really made a terrific public statement about the reconciliation that God is able to create. Not only between Himself and individuals but between other individuals as well.
And then there’s beauty of a community that allows this kind of expression for these diverse elements that don’t impact soteriology. For these diverse elements to allow themselves to expressed within the community.
You know one of the more fun things we do on our campus are the chapels where we have either the international students or the African American students, some of minority students that we have, do the chapel. And they do it in their style of church. And one, that’s informative everybody. And two, it’s just as refreshing to see a different style of worship and engagement with God. And that opens up all kinds of possibilities for the church that you lose when you do try and homogenize everything.
Mark Bailey:
That’s great. When do we violate scripture in retaining or in enforcing our cultural identities? When does that violate scripture? In other words if Jews want to keep a kosher sink. And keep their traditions. For a Jewish congregation when does that contribute to unity and diversity within the body? When does it violate doctrine of the oneness in Christ?
Harold Hoehner:
Well I think it contributes in a sense it shows that there is individuality and diversity, even though they’re in one body. I think when it doesn’t contribute saying – when they start saying, “You must follow this as well. It’s required of you. Whether you’re Jew or gentile. But especially if you’re Jewish background, you’ve got to have this.” And then I think it – then I think you would bring in a lot of tension within the community of believers.
Darrell Bock:
I think the question becomes not whether something is happening, whether a certain practice is happening, but why it’s happening. And what’s the motivation? What are people being told about why this is being done? And what’s interesting is the scripture allows two standards it seems to me.
One is for kind of the exceptional practice, if you want to think of it that way. One is out of a missionary concern for the person to whom I am reaching out. Now I don’t want to do anything that gets in the way of the gospel. That offends or causes stumbling.
But the other principle which is one we tend not to think as much about is what’s called the principle of the individual conscience. If a person exercises a freedom that they might have in Christ, but they don’t feel free in exercising that freedom, okay? Then to them it’s sin.
And so these two standards are at work in these situations. Either one of them or both of them together. And so certain people live as Jewish people having become believers. Because either they want to reach out to their Jewish neighbors. And some people are particularly sensitive, for example, to very Orthodox Jews reaching out to very Orthodox Jews. This tends to happen especially in Israel.
And so you’ve got that one factor at work. And in other cases a person says, “I feel – if I can say it this way. I feel like I am a Jewish Christian. And so if I exercise this freedom my conscience doesn’t feel comfortable as if I am honoring God.”
Now, Paul talks this in scripture. He talks about the weak and the strong, etcetera. But he doesn’t tell the weak person, if you want to put it that way, “No, you’ve got to be strong.” He says, “If you can’t do that in good conscience then don’t do it. Anything not done of out faith is sin.” So both of those principles, it seems to me, apply. So it’s not what is going on. It’s not the practice. Well that’s different so you can’t do it. It’s why it’s being done that’s important.
Harold Hoehner:
And the attitude behind it.
Darrell Bock:
Exactly.
Mark Bailey:
How would you respond to this statement? If I think that my practice culturally is more righteous than those who don’t practice that culture have I crossed the line? In other words, if kosher is more righteous than non kosher, is that crossing the line of the middle wall of partition being broken down between Jew and gentile according to Act 2, Ephesians 2?
Darrell Bock:
Well that’s spiritual arrogance. And it’s sin. But I’m not sure it’s a – if I can make this kind of ___. It’s sin but it’s not necessarily heresy in the sense of you’re not – spiritual pride is something all kinds of groups deal with.
So the idea of if someone believes that or does that that somehow they’re outside the circle of the church because they believe that and act in that way, I wouldn’t take it that far. I don’t think – let’s say it another way. I don’t think we’re quite to the point where Paul is in Galatians where he anathematizes certain of his opponents. Because they think – at least I think this is what they mean – that circumcision is absolutely necessary for everyone.
Okay, then that’s what Dr. Hoehner was saying earlier. They’re saying to other people, “You must do this or you really haven’t experienced the grace of God that He has brought in Jesus Christ.” And when Paul hears that he goes, “Now that’s wrong. That is another gospel. I don’t care you hear that from. I don’t care if an angel tells you that.” Which is pretty high up there on the rank, you know. “Don’t respond that kind of a message.” That’s when a line is being crossed. When Jesus Christ alone is not good enough to bring the benefits that God gives to His children.
Harold Hoehner:
I think that’s the difference between the weak and the strong. The strong trust in the revelation of God. And the weak have to have rules and regulations. But I don’t think necessarily that is ultimately wrong. I mean I think we all have weaknesses in our own lives. And we say we may have a rule for this. And for a justifiable reason.
But when I say then, “Oh, I have a better relationship to God because I have this rule for me; therefore, if that’s the case then you need to have that rule as well.” Then you’re getting into legalism. Then you’re foisting that. And that’s beyond what is needed for Christ. He’s all sufficient.
Darrell Bock:
I think it’s important also to appreciate that some people who want to keep these rules seem themselves as being very faithful to what God originally said to the Jewish people. And so they see it as an expression of their, if I can say it this way, their faith walk as Jewish Christians.
And part of maintaining that Jewish identity in the midst of their embrace of Christ, which they see Christ completing but not wiping out. And so in that sense also I think it’s important to understand. I think it’s easy for gentiles for whom this has never – some of these issues have never been a concern. To say, “Well that’s just a form of legalism or whatever.”
No. What motivates a lot of people is this is something our people, if I can say it that way, our ethnic group, has keep for centuries as part of their reflection of love for God. And I still identify with what God started there and what God is completing there in Jesus Christ. And so I’m not leaving it.
Harold Hoehner:
I think it’s very difficult for a Jewish person many times. More than for the gentile. When God had commanded them to be circumcised. Or they were to keep the Sabbath. Or they were not to eat pork. And all of a sudden in the new era says, “No, don’t call that unclean.” And I think that’s very difficult. Something that we may not have faced. Why did God command this for generations? And all of a sudden this is no longer binding on us.
And I think it’s very easy to say, “Well, we’ve got to keep that element there.” But then it goes farther. No, you need to keep that element as well. You – other Jews who became Christians, or gentiles even, need to keep this.
Darrell Bock:
And I think in the first century when we come to the time of Christ it’s important to understand how much conflict there had been over trying to be a faithful Jew in a largely and encroachingly Hellenistic world. That, you know the Maccabean War which is, it just happened a century and a half earlier, was basically about Jewish identity. You read the book of 1 Maccabees and it begins by noting how people were trying to deny their Jewishness by the way they were living.
And other Jews were becoming concerned and upset that people would deny their unique ethnicity and practices that God had called them to live out as an expression of the fact that they were God’s people. So there was terrific cultural tension and identification that was wrapped up in this in the time when Jesus came to earth and began to talk about it.
And of course what Jesus tries to do is to get it properly prioritized, if you will. And thought through in terms of what’s really important and what isn’t. And yet at the same time, I think as Harold says, it’s very hard to leave something behind that you have identified as being central to kind of who you have been.
Harold Hoehner:
And this carried right on into the new church. I mean Acts 15:3-5 there were Pharisees who became Christians that wanted, and says it’s necessary to be circumcised. They’re carrying that on.
Mark Bailey:
So to keep one’s Jewishness for cultural identification, for cultural heritage and appreciation, we would say is perfectly fine.
Darrell Bock:
And even for a sense of one’s identity. If a person says that they are, “I’m a Jewish Christian. Okay. And both of those words count. And that’s who I am. And that’s how I express my faithfulness to God.” If they do that in good conscience and they don’t understand that there’s anything particularly saving or soteriological about that that’s a perfectly appropriate thing to do.
Mark Bailey:
So it’s not that if you do that you’re more righteous than those who don’t. It is for the expression of continuity of faith and culture that I choose to do it. But I don’t assume others have to do it in order to be right with God.
Harold Hoehner:
And also, very possibly, I am witnessing to my community. And I don’t want to offend them.
Mark Bailey:
Sure. Exactly. There are those who believe that Israel’s chance is passed. They had their option. They chose to reject Jesus Christ. And therefore there is not a need to be concerned with Israel anymore. God is doing other things among the gentiles.
As dispensationalists don’t believe that. We believe that there is a future for the nation of Israel and the Jewish people in God’s plan. How do you respond to those who, besides saying we disagree with them, how would you speak to those who believe that Israel’s opportunity has been passed?
Harold Hoehner:
Well, you see it right already in Romans. I mean Paul was so concerned that they would come to know the Messiah that had come that he was willing to face anathema. The curse of God. He says, “I’d rather have one Jew in hell than have all my kinsmen in hell.” What a pastoral concern Paul really has for these people.
And he has this concern he says, “Because I know they’re being disobedient just like I was disobedient. And it was not until the Damascus Road that I had finally realized this Jesus whom I was persecuting is the Messiah.” And so he says there is a need. And that God has not passed them by. And he says, and the argument in Romans, “There’s always been a remnant.” He includes himself and Elijah. But there will continue to be a remnant. And eventually all Israel will be saved.
Well, if he, God is finished with Israel then why is the prophecy that Israel will be saved?
Darrell Bock:
The difficult here is in, of course, the view that you mentioned is sometimes labeled as replacement theology. That the church has replaced Israel in the program. That Israel forfeited her place in the program of God by rejecting her Messiah.
And what’s interesting here is I think it’s important to understand that there are different kinds of expressions of replacement theology. I think all replacement theologians would say, “Well, everyone should be evangelized.”
But I think what happens practically speaking, and I think this is why this is important to ministries to that are concerned about reaching out to Jewish people. Is that practically speaking there’s kind of a step back away from Jewish people and Jewish evangelism.
It’s like, “Yeah, they’re like everybody else. So we won’t be particularly concerned about them. But we also know they kind of had their chance and blew it. And so we aren’t gonna give that much energy, effort, attention, etcetera, to trying to go there.”
And what’s interesting is is that within some elements of replacement theology there are people popping up now who say, “No, no, no. I read Romans 9 to 11 just as Dr. Hoehner did. You don’t have to be a dispensationalist to read it that way.” And there should be a concern to reach out to Jewish people because Paul does continue to hold out this hope that God will bring them back. You know he uses the picture of if He could graft you in as an unnatural branch it’s not too much of a thing for Him to graft the natural branch back in.
So there’s this expectation that one day God will finally engage and embrace and draw masses of Jewish people to respond. And Paul’s hope of that is expressed very clearly, it seems to me, in Romans 11.
Harold Hoehner:
You see this, for instance, in the replacement theology has been carried out by the Nazis. You were the Christ haters. He’s through with you. You know. Implying that the church or this new regime, the Nazi party was really replacing all this. And it’s very interesting, you know in this whole dialogue with Jewish people saying, “Well, look at what you did as Christians. The Holocaust.” Well, it wasn’t a Christian. I wouldn’t think the Nazi party would be called a Christian. Nobody would think this.
But also in the replacement theology in the present day. A very prominent church here in Dallas had a series on the book of Romans. A study of the book of Romans 1 through 8 and 12 through 16. Completely left out 9 through 11.
Darrell Bock:
It happens. And of course, there’s a history to some of this. There has been, in the history of the church, a tendency as the church moved away from its Jewish roots in the later part of the second century, in the third century, in the fourth century. And you can even see it in the Reformation period. This kind of ostracizing and segregating of the Jewish community which led to arise of genuine anti-Semitism. And the church is guilty of that. It’s something that the church needs to face up to.
You can read it. You can read it, as I say, in some of the most prominent of the Reformers. I’ll never forget being in the birthplace of Martin Luther and going through one of the museums dedicated to his life. And you know seeing a variety of Bibles and this kind of thing.
And then I came to a section of the museum that was dedicated to his writings against Judaism and against Jews. And because I know a touch of German, you know I can read the titles. I can read some of what he’s saying. And I’m going, “Boy, if he’d said that on the air, on radio today, I mean, you know we’d probably have a action of the Anti-defamation League and a few others who weren’t too happy old Martin.”
And this kind of thinking that the Jews are something other, is really the poison that led into the Holocaust. One of the most fascinating places you can go to in Berlin is the Jewish Museum. Which is pretty new. It’s in the Old East German side.
And if you walk through that museum, part of it is a study of the attitudes towards Jews that arose in Europe that led eventually into the Holocaust. A kind of self-confession by Germans about what contributed to getting there. And I think the museum is there as a reminder and a hope that if we learn the lessons from what was done before, we’ll avoid the danger of going there again.
Harold Hoehner:
I couldn’t agree more. Because I didn’t want to imply about the Nazi party as not being Christian. Implying that there have not been – or implying that Christians didn’t persecute Jews. We have not had a good record on that at all. I think of the medieval times and the Inquisition. And the Crusades and all that. We’ve had not – we’ve had a very bad record really in that way.
Mark Bailey:
And I think that’s very important in our conversations as contemporary church, to admit that. To in essence voice our repentance on behalf of previous generations of Christians towards the Jewish people. You know because that is a real sticking point in the relationships. Just even as people and citizens of our country or Israel or wherever we go.
Darrell Bock:
You know and I think another way to get at this and to say it a different way is this. Is to say when you share with a Jewish person and the tendency might be to have that person say, “Well, why are you sharing with me?” In a sense of, you know you know what my religious faith is or whatever.
I think one of the responses that a person can have is is that I’m not sharing with you anything different than I would with any other person on earth. You know that there is – that it’s what I sensed I need. It’s what’s changed my life. And it is because I care and love for you, my love for you is so great that I share it with you. And I would share it with anyone who asked me what can change your life. Nothing can change your life more than the gospel.
Mark Bailey:
Let me take a different angle for a moment. Because of the tension in the Middle East and because of the way Christians and non Christians identify with different peoples, how do we as dispensational theologians here at Dallas. And how do we challenge Christians who may or may not share that theological perspective. How do we help them understand that we believe that God has a purpose for the Jews?
Which does not mean that we identify and support everything that the modern state of Israel does. How do we keep the Biblical theological on track without it getting hijacked by the contemporary political conflicts within the Middle East?
Harold Hoehner:
Well we must realize that, again the government as a whole, like our government, would be secular. And so we ___ have to see this as a faith community. And when Israel does something wrong, when there’s an injustice, then it is wrong. If people in Gaza do an injustice, it is an injustice. It is wrong. If a German does an injustice, it is wrong. If an American does an injustice it’s wrong. If a Christian, godly Christian does an injustice, it is completely wrong.
We see this, for instance, in the Old Testament. Okay. These are God’s chosen people. Okay. And He does not say, “Okay, since you’re my people you can do anything you want.” What happened? They sinned and where did they go? To Babylon. In other words, God didn’t overlook that. When there’s injustice and when disobedience came about. But He sent them into captivity.
And must also realize this for the present day. Wrong is wrong. No matter who does it. And so though we may be loyal to Israel that doesn’t mean that everything Israel does is right.
Darrell Bock:
And there’s a sense in which the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons. Which is like the old picture of justice. Which is that justice has a blindfold over her eyes as she weighs the scales. And I think that when we look at the Middle East, you know the ethical standards that God desires for righteousness and justice, the things that Dr. Hoehner mentioned, are precisely the standards that are to be equally applied to everyone.
We sometimes think that our decisions somehow make it easier for God to be able to do what He plans to do. We don’t have to help God. He’s quite capable of doing what He plans to do. And I suspect He’s a rather better administrator than most of us are. And so in that sense, I think it’s just important to not think that anything that we do or any support that we give or something like that somehow is able to help God along the way. God works in us and through us. That’s for sure. But our standard is to pursue the commitment to justice and righteousness that He calls all of us to have with all people.
Mark Bailey:
I think too, there’s a difference between being a blessing to God’s people and being a support of all that God’s people do. And God didn’t call us to support all the political agendas of any people. He did call us to be a blessing. Not only to the Jewish people but to everyone else as well. And to bless those, He said, “I will bless you that – I will bless those that bless Abraham and his seed. And I’ll curse those that curse Abraham and his seed.”
One of the best ways I think we can be a blessing is to share the wisdom and the gospel. It’s not to white wash, you know what God is expecting in terms of faith and obedience and justice and righteousness and peace. The standards that have always been for everybody.
That takes us then to what would you men share with our listening audience that you have seen and experienced in the ministries of Jews for Jesus, Chosen People or beyond those organizations that would be helpful in reaching out to Jewish people? We’ve talked about it a little bit. But especially in practical approaches, you know what should listeners be thinking about as they try and seek to build bridges to a Jewish person with whom they might be able to share the gospel?
Harold Hoehner:
Well these two mission organizations as well as other mission organizations speaking to the Jewish community, have literature. And help hints on how to deal with Jewish people fairly and correctly. And not deceptively. And saying also the need for Jewish people to come to Christ like any other person needs to come to Christ.
Darrell Bock:
Yes. And I think this, beyond the literature, which is very, very important because it’s kind of like crossing into a foreign world. It’s like entering into a cross-cultural experience. I think it’s very important in the context of Jewish evangelism, as in other evangelism, but particularly this kind of evangelism where the religious world is so different. At least potentially so. Is if you are evangelizing a Jewish person, to let them talk about their religious experience. To get to know them and to kind of hear where they’re coming from. And learn from them.
And if you befriend a Messianic Jew remember that different isn’t necessarily wrong in terms of practice. And again, in the conversation I think you have the opportunity to learn about what motivates them to live as they do. To learn a little bit about the faith roots that they have which is usually very different from the roots of most Christians. That kind of thing.
And all of these things, I then think flow into and feed the development of a mutual respect between Jews and gentiles in the body of Christ. For one, where they come from. And two, how they can walk together in trying to reach out to Jews and gentiles. All of whom need Jesus Christ.
Mark Bailey:
That’s great. Let me read just a portion, a couple of the statements of this recent statement on The Gospel and the Jewish People: An Evangelic Statement.
As evangelic Christians, we want to express our genuine friendship and love for the Jewish people. We sadly acknowledge that church history has been marred with anti-Semitic words and deeds. And that at times when the Jewish people were in great peril the church did far less than it should have.
I think that’s a great statement.
Harold Hoehner:
It is a great statement.
Mark Bailey:
One of their points is that we pledge our commitment to be loving friends and to stand against injustice in our generation. At the same time we want to be transparent in affirming that we believe the most loving and scriptural expression of our friendship towards Jewish people, and to anyone we call friends, is to forthrightly share the love of God in the person of Jesus Christ.
We don’t back off in the gospel in other words.
We believe that it’s only through Jesus that all people can receive eternal life. If Jesus is not the Messiah of the Jewish people He cannot be the Savior of the world. Says Acts 4:12. We recognize that it’s good and right for those with specialized knowledge, history and skills to use these gifts to introduce individuals to the Messiah. And that includes those ministries specifically directed to Jewish people, 1 Corinthians 9:20-22.
To by all means, you know to be able to reach some. And you both are involved in that in your respected Jewish ministries. I think a good statement that they go on to make is, “We deplore the use of deception or coercion in evangelism. However, we reject the notion that it is deceptive for followers of Jesus Christ who are born Jewish to continue to identify as Jews. According to Romans 11:1.
We want to make it clear that as evangelical Christians we do not wish to offend our Jewish friends by the above statements. But that we are compelled by our faith and commitment to the scriptures to stand by these principles. It is out of our profound respect for Jewish people that we seek to share the good news of Jesus Christ with them. And encourage others to do the same. For we believe that salvation is only found in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, the Savior of the world.”
I think that those are critical statements of intent and ought to motivate us as we keep the Jewish people at heart, as well as gentiles, as we share the gospel.
Darrell Bock:
You know 2008 is an important year because you have this statement. And then in August there’s going to be a meeting with the Lausanne Consultation has called together with the help of the World Evangelical Alliance. In which they are going to issue a updated theological statement in light of issues like the two covenants and that kind of thing.
It’s gonna be held in Berlin in August. And this statement, I think, is going to be another example of the church reaffirming her commitment to her own roots. Which comes to us right out of the – from the Jewish people and from the seed of Abraham, from the ethnic seed of Abraham. Coming right out of the Abrahamic covenant and the promises made there.
And even though in one sense Jesus Christ is the singular seed as Galatians says and certainly is the hub of God’s program. God has not cast His eye away from the corporate seed that He created out of Abraham.
Harold Hoehner:
And we know that in evangelizing Jews, and I’m sure Dr. Bock can say the same thing in Chosen People, we see Jews for Jesus that when they go evangelize many gentiles have come to Christ. So we’re not trying to discriminate against them. They don’t say, “Wait a minute. We don’t witness to you because we want to witness to Jewish people.”
No, I think the gospel is for all. Jew or gentile. And what we want them to see is to come to see that this Messiah is the one to come to save them from eternal separation from Him. And to enjoy Him forever.
Mark Bailey:
That’s great. Gentlemen, thank you for the time today. Thank you for your ministries. Your heart for the Jewish people that you model by your involvements and by your life and by your declaration and clarification of the gospel. We deeply appreciate it.
Announcer:
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